Emails on the subject
Andrew Kreibich (email@example.com) writes
thanks for putting my stuff on your page. I haven't had chance to put
together much more about the farms in the area just yet, got a bit
sidetracked with the Buxtons mentioned in the document.
I found Benjamin Buxton's family in your transcription of Ince's pedigrees
page 061b. According to this, Benjamin Stone Buxton was the son of Walter
Buxton who in turn was a son of George Buxton of Brassington. George was a
son of Walter Buxton a farmer of Castern, Staffordshire.
Probate for Benjamin Stone Buxton's will was 1865, so he must have died
between 1861 census and 1865. I've just searched Free BMD and his death was
registered in the march quarter 1865, Bakewell registration district 7b 441
I haven't been able to find anything more about these Buxtons yet.
I haven't found John Travis after 1881 when he is living with wife Ann
daughter Ann and grandson Thomas in Turnditch. The residence is Common Side,
but there is a note under this saying Transferred to Hulland Ward.
There is a death registered in Belper RD march q 1885 for a 70 year old John
Travis which could be him.
If this is correct then the JT mentioned in 1900 must have been his son.
He married MARY ANN HOLMES
20 FEB 1883 Mugginton, Derby, England
In 1891 he is living at Hazelwood lane, Hazelwood Derbyshire
Can't find John junior in 1901, but his wife Mary A Travis is living in King
st Belper with her nephew. She is listed as a widow. Not quite sure when
John died, the only one I can find in free BMD is John Travis age 58 died
1899 dec quarter registerd in Uttoxeter reg dist.
I've just had a look at the note on the document that you scanned and I'm
wondering if the date is 22-10-60 and not 22-10-00. This would make a bit
more sense as it is only a few months after the stamp date. I have found a
John Kinder living in Market place Cromford in 1861
He is age 42 born Withington Lancashire and is a victualler. He has a wife,
Anne age 41 born Pilkington Lancashire and a daughter Elizabeth age 6 born
I am still a bit puzzled as to where this stamp and annotation fit into
things as you state that the document is dated 6 April 1861, several months
I have just noticed an error in the email I sent you earlier where I have
listed Mary Wood as dying in 1852 and being buried in Nov 1853. The death
year should have been 1853 not 1852.
Regarding your query over the spelling of Ivon/Ironbrook. I'm going with
Ivonbrook as it appears to be the modern version and is also the spelling on
ordnance survey maps from the 1800s. Early versions of the name are
something like Wen's brook or Wenbroc from things I've seen, so my feeling
is that the v is closer to this. However, I have seen plenty of instance of
P.S. I don't mind doing a jigsaw with your scans if you are able to scan the
bits (Not that I doubt the accuracy of your transcription, I just find it
interesting looking at the old writing!)
Thanks for your email.
I saw the document on your website yesterday and was intending writing to
you as I have information on all of those mentioned in it.
Before I start, I must thank you for your excellent site, which was one of
the first that I found on the internet when I started investigating my
family tree a few years ago. (Dawn's site was the other one). After finding
hundreds of ancestors from my Rains branch on these two sites, I decided
that it would be a fairly easy thing to trace my family. Little did I
realise at the time that I was very lucky that my Rains lived half way
between Winster and Wirksworth and that your two sites were by far the most
comprehensive of any places in England.
Since then I've used your PR transcriptions, census material and Dawn's
research to put together a sizeable tree. I've passed on everything I've
found to Dawn and most of this has been incorporated into her site, but I
can fill in more details.
First a bit of my background.
I live in Australia, having emigrated from Manchester when I was 4 years
old. My father is a descendent of the Rains of Winster/Ivonbrook. My Rains
appear to have lived in Ivonbrook at Wiggleymeadow farm/Upper House
Ivonbrook since at least the 1600s. The earliest we have managed to link in
is Henry Rains who died in 1667 and was buried at Wirksworth 4 Nov 1667.
The John Rains in your document is the g g grandson of this Henry through
the following line
Henry Rains and Alice
one of their sons was
William Rains (1630 - 1705) who married Mary Marshall (? - 1716) on 31 March
1662 at Youlgreave
one of their sons was
John Rains (1680 - 1752) who married Margaret(a) Banks on 22 FEb 1713/14
One of their sons was Isaac Rains (1719-1804) who married Elizabeth
Foxlow(? - 1805) on 11 Jan 1754 in Elton
One of their sons was the John Rains of your document. John was born 1774,
died 12 May 1839.
He married Elizabeth North on 24 feb 1800 St Margaret's church Carsington.
Elizabeth was born 1783 Ashleyhay, Baptised 22 Jan 1783 Wirksworth.
She died 2 Mar 1860 according to your document. She was buried 6 March 1860
Middleton by Wirksworth.
John and Elizabeth had the following children
John (1801 - after 1851) I'm guessing he died before 1861 as I can't find
him after that, but maybe he is the other John Rains mentioned in the
Samuel (1804 - ?) I'm presuming he died before 1841 or left the area as I've
not found him in any census or marriage or death after this date.
Elizabeth (1806 -?)
Mary (1811 - after 1881)
Isaac (1813 - bef 1881)
Ann (13 may 1817 - after 1861)
This Ann married John Travis 13 March 1839 Wirksworth. John was born 2 nov
1815 in Ible, baptised 10 dec 1815 Wirksworth. He was the son of Thomas
Travis and Hannah Unknown.
This is presumably the John Travis mentioned in the document. You have him
and his family in the 1861 census at Brailsford Hulland Ward. Your ref
Hw40a to Hw40f.
You will also find them in 1851 in Hulland ward your refs Hw24a to Hw24i and
in 1841 at Ivonbrook living with Ann's mother Elizabeth (now a widow), your
ref Ir3c to Ir3h
The Isaac Rains of Brassington Moor mentioned in the document is presumably
the one you found in 1841 census your ref Br154a. He was born 1790
Wirksworth according to Dawn, but I don't have a christening for him. He was
the son of Isaac Rains (1754 - 1825, buried 3 jul 1825 Wirksworth) and
Elizabeth Cobb(3 jul 1768 - Jan 1848, buried 11 Jan 1848 Wirksworth).
Isaac Rains (1754-1925) was another son of Isaac Rains and Elizabeth Foxlow
mentioned above.(i.e. the brother of the John Rains mentioned in your
Isaac Rains and Elizabeth Cobb had another son called Samuel (1802 - 1852)
who is presumably the Samuel mentioned in your document. This would make the
Isaac and Samuel of your document nephews of John Rains.
This Samuel was my 3rd great grandfather. He married Mary Wood 13 sept 1837
in All Saints Bakewell. Mary was born 1816 in Snelston, baptised 14 April
1816, Snelston, died 1852 Ivonbrook Grange, buried 10 Nov 1853 Middleton by
Mary Wood was the daughter of John Wood and Mary Buxton. Mary had a sister
called Dorothy, bapt 14 mar 1819 Youlgreave. Dorothy married Benjamin Buxton
in 1846 (registered dec quarter Ashbourne Registration District)
Benjamin Buxton was born 1826 Aldwark, bapt 28 june 1826 Bradbourne.
Benjamin and Dorothy are living at "The Lead Gate" Aldwark in 1851 census
together with Benjamin's father, Benjamin Stone Buxton, widower.
Benjamin Stone Buxton was born 1788 Aldwark.
Both Benjamins are still at "The Lead Gate" in 1861, so I'm not sure which
one is the one who signed the document.
Benjamin Stone Buxton was the son of Walter Buxton and Mary Stone who were
married 6 feb 1782, St James church, Brassington. He was a brother of the
above-mentioned Mary Buxton, wife of John Wood
If I've interpretted the document correctly, there are two John Rains
mentioned. The one who died in 1839 and the other one who affixed his seal
in 1861 and, along with Benjamin Buxton, was appointed a new trustee
following the deaths of Isaac and Samuel Rains.
Possibilities for this second John Rains are:
John Wood Rains born 1841, son of Samuel Rains and Mary Wood. He was living
in Wiggleymeadow in 1861
John Rains, son of Josiah Rains and Elizabeth living at upper house
Ivonbrook in 1861
The document says he was a farmer from Ivonbrook and the above are the only
two living there.
Other, more remote possibilities are:
John Rains son of John Rains and Elizabeth North (see above). However, I
can't find him in 1861
There is also a John Rains living in Griffe Grange in 1861. (he is related
to the others, but more on this later)
My guess is that the second John Rains was John Wood Rains who took over the
responsiblities from his father Samuel, but as he was only 20 at the time I
don't know if he was too young to legally be able to do this.
The only one I can't connect is William Heathcote. I have found him in
Winster in 1861 (and earlier). In 1861 he is living with his wife Mary (born
at Alfreton), their son Joseph and a servant Martha Buxton. I don't know if
Martha is connected to Benjamin Buxton.
They are also living next door to a William Rains age 41 blacksmith and
local methodist preacher, his wife Sarah, age 52 and their niece Anne age 6.
This William is the son of Ralph and Phoebe Rains, who are from another line
of Rains, tracing back to a Robert Rains of Darley. At this stage we don't
know of any link to the Henry Rains line.
That probably outlines the main connections between them. I have about 400
Rains in my tree so can supply more information if you want. At present I am
trying to sort out what was happening on the farms at Ivonbrook. Henry Rains
seems to have been the first mentioned in the area, and my guess is that he
farmed at what is now upper house/Wiggleymeadow, possibly as one farm.
At some stage the farm appears to have been split with what was originally
Wiggleymeadow passing down the line mentioned above and what was Upper house
passing down a long line of Josiah Rains, starting with a son of William
Rains and Mary Marshal.
To further complicate matters, the names of the two farms (Wiggleymeadow and
Upper house) swapped over in the 1930s when both farms were sold.
Wiggleymeadow is now the name of the farm on the East side of the road, but
before this it was the name of the farm on the West side of the road.
Rains have also lived at Griffe Grange.
The Griffe Grange branch descend from another John Rains and his wife Hannah
Woodas who appear to have moved there from Ivonbrook in about 1818-1819.
This John was another son of Isaac Rains and Elizabeth Cobb. John and Hannah
had a daughter Ann Rains b 6 oct 1825 Griffe Grange. She married William
Travis, a brother of John Travis on 28 Jan 1858, Wirksworth.
In 1871 there are some Rains living at Tophill farm. Their descendents
appear to have been living there until quite recently. Before 1871 the farm
was occupied by John and Mary Webster and their family. Mary Webster (nee
Rains) was a daughter of John Rains and Elizabeth North.
In 1841 John's widow Elizabeth is listed as living at one of 3 houses in
Ironbrook along with John Travis and his wife Ann (nee Rains). As
Wiggleymeadow and Upper house were occupied by other branches of the Rains
family, I am presuming that Elizabeth is living at Tophill in 1841
(unfortunately the names of the farms aren't recorded). She is certainly at
Tophill 1851, but is living with John and Mary Webster (nee Rains, another
of her daughters). But in 1871 the farm is being run by a Robert Rains. He
is a descendant of Isaac Rains and Elizabeth Cobb. I don't know how or when
(although it was between 1861 and 1871) the farm passed from the Websters to
I am sorting through some will transcripts that Dawn sent me, which has
helped get some of it into place, but there is a long way to go and
information keeps coming in faster than I can process it!
When I started trying to sort out the farms I did so with the intention of
sending my findings to you for inclusion on your site. I will still do this,
it is just taking me longer than I thought!
I have also been following your discussions of the name Ivonbrook/Ironbrook
etc over the last few years. Like you, I have assumed that Imbrook,
Embrook, Ambrook and Ivonbrook/Ironbrook are all the same place. The Rains
living in these farms are also listed as coming from Grange and Grangemill.
The township of Grangemill now has a farm called Ivonbrook Grange Farm and
another building called Ivonbrook cottage. However the farms that the Rains
lived in (at least in the 1800s) are a little further north of Grangemill
township (at Wiggleymeadow) and to the east (Tophill). The farms in the
township of Grangemill appear to have been inhabited by other families.
To further complicate matters, some of the early parish records mention
Ember, Imber and Amber. I'm not sure if they are the same place as Ivonbrook
as there was an Ember farm in Bonsall in the ordnance survey maps of the mid
1800s and these may be referring to this.
To complete my Rains connection Samuel Rains and Mary Wood had a son called
Samuel who married Elizabeth Hardy of Winster. He moved from Ivonbrook to
Winster, where they lived in Main st near the Winster Market house. Their
son Frederick Rains moved to Manchester where he met and married my great
There is also a story surrounding Elizabeth Hardy and Samuel Rains. Family
legend has it that Elizabeth was somehow related to Rear Admiral Sir Thomas
Masterman Hardy (Nelson's Hardy) although we have never been able to work
out the connection. She appears to have come from a long line of Hardy's
from Youlgreave, but apparently the Admiralty wrote to Samuel offering him
some money from the estate of Thomas. As Thomas died several years before
Samuel and Elizabeth were born, we can only guess that it was something that
arose once the daughters and/or widow of Thomas died many years later.
Thomas had no male children that we know of, so presumably any relationship
must have been more distant.
Please feel free to use any or all of the above on your website. I will
attempt to put together a fuller account of the Rains of Ivonbrook sometime
this year and will send it to you. Meanwhile, if you have any questions,
please feel free to ask.
Please don't put this email address on your website (although you are
welcome to use it to correspond with me).
I have another firstname.lastname@example.org which you are
welcome to put on your website if you like, I'd be happy to hear from
anyone with Rains connections or any information about Ivonbrook.
P.S. Would it be possible for you to sent me a scan of the original document
if that isn't too much trouble?
Dawn Scotting wrote:
I've had a look at the conveyance thank you. Have been able to fill in a
couple of full death dates I didn't have and everything else seems to
tally with the pedigree I have on the RAINS except for Benjamin BUXTON -
I haven't a clue (as yet) where he fits into it, if indeed he does.
The RAINS friends who were the original heirs/executors of John's will
turn out to be his nephews, the sons of his brother Isaac. I'm presuming
the John RAINS who ended up being one of the trustees was his son but
could have been any number of his nephews who were all named John!
It is rather strange that John left everything (after his wife died) to
his nephews and not any of his own three sons & two (maybe 3) daughters
who were still living. I suppose this conveyance could have just been
concerned with only the barn and that his will probably mentioned all of
his children - I wonder if his will has survived.
I'll let you know if I find anything on Benjamin Buxton.
Margaret Howard wrote:
I've got a photocopy of the Bonsall Tithe Schedule (1846) and copies of
the Bonsall Tithe map (1847). If you will have patience for a week or
two I can give you the exact location of the field, barn and number,
who owned what, size of field, who rented etc.
As far as I am aware there is a Sammy Rains still living at a farm on
Bonsall Moor, he's quite elderly now and retired. I can't remember
the name of his farm (that is why I need to look at my 6" O.S. map)
but it lies north of the lane that runs across Bonsall Moor to Winster
and I think is within Winster parish.
Incidently I've found my gran's copy of "Adam Bede", if ever you're
over in Hampshire and want to borrow it I will be more than pleased to
lend it to you. Also any of my other records i.e. the complete set
of Peak District Mines Historcial Society's journal, nearly a complete
set of DFHS journals, quite a few DAS journals and Derbyshire Miscellany
Will be in contact soon.
Dawn Scotting wrote:
Strange the mail should bounce as I haven't changed my email address.
However, I am currently having problems with getting mail for some
reason so will look into that thanks. I don't suppose you still have a
copy of the bounce message do you?
Yes of course you may use anything from my webpage that you wish.
However, that document you found is way out of date, to see a more
uptodate version go to my Winster database on WorldConnect here:-
or straight to John Rains 1774-1839
How interesting that you picked that conveyance document up on eBay. I
shall have a good look at it tomorrow and see if there is anything else
in it that I didn't already know pertaining to the pedigrees of those
You might also like to contact Andrew Kreibich -
- he is VERY interested in the RAINS of Ironbrook etc and has done very
comprehensive research on them. I think he would be delighted to hear
about this too.
[Note: see detailed reply from Andrew Kreibich]
Dawn Scotting wrote:
I'm still here John, will contact you off list. Strange the mail should
bounce, it's still the same address as it has been for 25 years :).
David Lowe wrote:
I forgot to tell you-the Brittlebanks of Oddo Hall were a prominent
winster family, and on May 21 1821 william B murdered Dr William Cuddie
and did a Lord Lucan (allegedly)!
David Lowe wrote:
John, In the domesday book winster was Winsterne(I make that win's-or
ewan's- stoney ground) and Ivonbrook was Winsbroc or wins brook,Ekwall
in the Oxford dictionary of English place names has obviously missed
the geographical connection.Saxon settlement would have been at the
junction with Bonsall Lane, which is very rocky around, due to the
Bonsall fault and dolomitisation of surrounding rocky outcrops making
them more resistant to weathering.The drier upland contrasts with the
brook further towards grangemill and of course the massively important
Shothouse Spring.The present location of Winster would have grown during
more peaceful times (Tudor onwards) when a commanding position was less
important. I know of no instance of ewan becming iron, but several of
it becoming evan or ivon. There is an old street in Derby called
Irongate and my guess the clerk who wrote the victorian records knew of
it and made a cognitive error.Just my theory!regards, David.
David Lowe wrote:
Thanks john, I see your point with the writing.Of course it is entirely
feasible that a clerical error by someone miles from grangemill is
responsible. I drew attention to the V because firstly i wanted the
location to be correctly identified on map. and secondly I can't find
any evidence of staining of the stream, although there was an interesting
industrial hamlet at grangemill.I am impressed by your research.Could the
whole matter have arisen because J.Palmer[RAINS?] Jr inherited as a minor
following succession of deaths of John, Samuel and Elizabeth? The
gravestones at Brassington are well worth a look.Regards, David.
David Lowe wrote:
Ps it is IVonbrook.Latter, Wigleymeadow and Tophill clearly shown in
vicinity of Grangemill, Ible Winster and Bonsall Leys, an area associated
with pasture and lead mining for 2000years.The Rains family can be found
in Wirksworth record and Brassington churchyard, and in todays phone book
at Top Hill. Why not visit the Barley Mow (closed mondays), walk over
Bonsall Leys to Ivonbrook (preferably on one of Alan's guided walks) and
stay at bonsall's favourite bb at the top of' town (details from alan) David.
David Lowe wrote:
My mate Jeff Punchard (co Barley Mow, The Dale Bonsall) lived at Bonsall
Leys, and Alan Webster, landlord of said pub (Google Mow and Hen to hit
BM's website) takes walkers there regularly.David.
David Lowe wrote:
John,with all the work you have done on Wirksworth I thought you lived
there! Bonsall website is well worth a visit.They are very proud of their
heritage. Do you want a map ref for Wigley Meadow or have you found it?
The 1;2500 white peak shows it.A transcription might not be too much use
if Ivonbrook for example is read as Ivorbrooke!, butI didn't want you to
go to too much trouble-your project just excited my interest.We used to
live at Bonsall lodge at the foot of Clatterway and I went to Bonsall
Cof E and Anthony Gell's, and used to explore caves mines and quarries
as a lad.I now holiday there whenever I can.David.
David Lowe wrote:
Correction, Rains are in phone book at TOP HILL farm, Ivonbrook Grange,
nr Winster/adjacent to Wigley Meadow. I wouldn,t mind a good copy of
indenture to enable me to transcribe in light of my local Knowledge.The
site of Shothouse spring appears to have been manicured by the national
park, but its ownership and communal use as agricultural and domestic
water supply has always fascinated me. Although the last property on
Bonsall Moor was piped-up a decade ago, farmers still fill bowsers in
the constant spring, and i always take some home in bottles.Have you a
connection with Bonsall Historical society? David.
David Lowe wrote:
The Rains family are still in the phone book at Ivonbrook/wigley Meadow.
I am not sure if they are still at Top hill.In 1861 census (wirksworth
Parish Records) the families are at both, but the householder at WM ,
John was only 20. (if I remember correctly 1846 list of tradesfolk shows
samuel as farmer at WM).There are some interesting memorials in Brassington
graveyard to Rains, where I believe John (of WM) was born. This is from
memory of previous reading, not from the family direct, so I suggest you
use it as a basis only for research in conjunction with Wirksworth PRs.
Wigley Meadow is just up the road from the Hollybush, before Shot House
Spring.Haven't you a photo of Hollybush with people?
David Lowe wrote:
John, glad you got this .The Rains family have lived at wigley meadow
and adjacent for centuries and Brassington graveyard and your records are
full of info on them, so I was upset to see it being sold on ebay by
someone who had never heard of Ivonbrook Grange.Best wishes,
David Lowe (formerly of bonsall and often in the Barley Mow.!)